Atlantic Basin

East Pacific Basin

No Current Activity

No Current Activity

Caribbean wave slowly organizing but no development soon

by Tim Trice on November 4, 2009 · 11 comments

in Atlantic Basin

A Caribbean tropical wave has slowly organized overnight.  However, though conditions are somewhat favorable for development, I believe any development chance over the next 24 hours are very slim.

The wave is not moving much at the moment.  In addition, ship reports are coming in indicating very weak winds.  So, either the system is not generating much at the surface, or it is a very compact system; the latter of which I would tend to agree with.

It seems most likely at this time the areas most in trouble from this over the next five days are Nicaragua and Honduras.  This is a very mountainous region that would tear a low-to-mid-level system apart – which the Caribbean wave is.  So, I will not be discussing any potential impacts in western Cuba, Yucatan, or the United States Gulf Coast.  You’ll have to keep coming back later.

Recon will be flying into the system later today.

Now, onto the Quick Hits.

Quick Hits:

  1. there have been two ship reports in the last six hours (as of 10:30 AM UTC) from the region:
    1. one approximately 73miles (135km) west-northwest of the center of circulation reported 1013mb (29.90in) pressure, falling 1mb (0.03in) in the past hour, with winds from the northwest (320°) at 9kts (10mph or 17kph); air temperature was 26°C (79°F); water temperature was 28°C (83°F);
    2. a second located about 130miles (241km) due east reported winds 15kts (17mph or 28kph) from the south-southeast; pressure was steady at 1012mb (29.88in); air temp was 27°C (81°F);
  2. UW-CIMSS shear maps (04/0900Z, Nov. 4, 3:00AM CST) indicate mininum shear up to 5kts (6mph or 9kph) in the southern portion of the cyclone; however, 10kts (12mph or 19kph) westerlies are in the northern quadrant of the cyclone; 20kts (23mph or 37kph) westerlies are running about two degrees in latitude north of the cyclone;
  3. UW-CIMSS 850mb vorticity (04/0900Z), 700mb and 500mb shows the low-level circulation centered approximately 11N, 82W; there are very faint indications of vorticity in the 200mb level to the southeast; this is a strong indication of a vertically-stacked system;
  4. upper-level divergence continues to be favorable over the tropical low; lower-level convergence has improved over the past 24 hours;
  5. as mentioned yesterday, SSTs are warm as much as 31°C (88°F) in some places but typically around 29°C (84°F); OHC values are as high as 70 kJ cm-2 in the region – not enough to support rapid development; the 26°C (79°F) isotherm extends to a depth of up to 100m (328ft) – pretty shallow;
  6. a 04/1045Z (4:45 AM CST) GOES-IR image shows very cold cloud tops as low as -80°C (-112°F) building over and to the north of the center of circulation;
  7. there continue to be good banding features containing convection near the system, according to a 04/0736Z (1:36 AM CST) Aqua-I 89H capture; however, a composite image at the same time indicates little deep moisture levels currently in the western quadrant (the eastern quadrant was not captured on this pass); accordingly, rainfall rate estimates are rather minimal, up to 0.5in (12.7mm) per hour;
  8. a 04/1045Z (4:45 AM CST) water vapor image shows little moisture around the storm system;

Computer Model Forecasts

  • the EMCWF (04/0000Z) run indicates a weak low should remain in the same general vicinity throughout the next five days;
  • the CMC (04/0000Z) run doesn’t develop the system for another 72 hours taking it north-northwest across the northeastern tip of Nicaragua/Honduras and then to the north of the Yucatan Peninsula in five days;
  • the GFS (04/0600Z) seems to no longer develop the system;
  • the GFDL (04/0000Z) develops the system to a hurricane within four days while keeping it mainly in the same region before finally pulling it north and then to the west around Nicragua/Honduras;
  • the HWRF (04/0000Z) is much more modest, developing the system to a moderate tropical storm before taking it inland and dissipating over northeast Nicaragua/Honduras;
  • other track models generally follow inline with the HWRF and CMC keeping it stationary over the next few days before a general track north-northwest;
  • intensity guidance suggests very slow development except the GFDI  which is out of it’s freaking mind with the GFDL bringing the system to a hurricane in five days;

Bottom line is I don’t expect development today.  At the same time, I wouldn’t be surprised.  Though the system is a little better organized, it is lacking deep convection which will not intensify the system.

Furthermore, with low air temperatures in the region (sub-80F), moderate SST’s but low OHC, there will be no chance of rapid development.

The GFDL and GFDI runs I think should be discounted.  I just don’t see this system becoming a hurricane in five days when it’s likely to remain in the same location for at least the next two days.

Interests in Honduras and Nicaragua, however, should be prepared – not necessarily for a landfalling cyclone, but for torrential rains.  As with what we saw in the Philippines and Vietnam, mountainous regions cause updrafts which increases rainfall rates.  It won’t take much in this instance.

Related posts:

  1. Thoughts on the Caribbean tropical wave, Invest 97L
  2. East Pacific wave trying to become Tropical Depression Twenty-E
  3. Wave off Cape Verde likely to become depression, Tropical Storm Fred
  4. Hybrid development in North Carolina?
  5. Shear killing Rick; dry air beating Lupit; Caribbean disturbance not interesting – yet

{ 11 comments… read them below or add one }

1 wrong-forecast November 4, 2009 at 8:44 AM

The NHC disagrees with you. imagine that!

SHOWERS AND THUNDERSTORMS ASSOCIATED WITH AN AREA OF LOW PRESSURE IN
THE EXTREME SOUTHWESTERN CARIBBEAN SEA HAVE INCREASED THIS MORNING
AND A TROPICAL DEPRESSION COULD FORM AT ANY TIME TODAY. UPPER-
LEVEL WINDS ARE FAVORABLE FOR ADDITIONAL DEVELOPMENT AS THE LOW
REMAINS NEARLY STATIONARY DURING THE NEXT DAY OR SO. AN AIR FORCE
RESERVE RECONNAISSANCE PLANE IS SCHEDULED TO INVESTIGATE THIS
SYSTEM THIS AFTERNOON. THERE IS A HIGH CHANCE…GREATER THAN 50
PERCENT…OF THIS SYSTEM BECOMING A TROPICAL CYCLONE DURING THE
NEXT 48 HOURS. LOCALLY HEAVY RAINS ARE POSSIBLE OVER THE NEXT FEW
DAYS OVER PORTIONS OF PANAMA…COSTA RICA…NICARAGUA…AND
HONDURAS IN ASSOCIATION WITH THIS SYSTEM.

Reply

2 Tim Trice November 4, 2009 at 8:56 AM

I thought I banned you. Ahhh, further research indicates you have a new IP. But, I’ll let you post these type of comments. Just behave and you’ll be fine.

Anyway, I very well could be wrong and I know there are many others who disagree (I read ALL). And, as I’ve said plenty of times before – I am not a meteorologist. I base what I see of 20 years experience.

I see more factors to prohibit development than I do to favor it. The system is looking better – that could be enough for the NHC (which, their “ideas” of tropical cyclone status are different than mine, but thats another story). They will wait until recon gets into the system and if they find sustainable winds and a closed surface low, they will upgrade it regardless of the convective status.

And then, I will go about posting updates as I normally do. In the meantime, though impressive, in my opinion there is not enough there to warrant depression status at this time.

Edit (7:58AM CST):Actually, seeing the system is blowing up in cloud tops, I could see the NHC upgrading it before the recon. So, I was wrong about it not developing within 24 hours. But, I still believe there is not enough energy available right now to support anything better than slow intensification – certainly not the GFDI or GFDL solutions.

Reply

3 Tim Trice November 4, 2009 at 9:57 AM

good convective banding around center of circulation:

Reply

4 stormfan November 4, 2009 at 10:00 AM

WE HAVE TROPICAL DEPRESSION ELEVEN!!!

000
WTNT41 KNHC 041457
TCDAT1
TROPICAL DEPRESSION ELEVEN DISCUSSION NUMBER 1
NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL AL112009
1000 AM EST WED NOV 04 2009

THE AREA OF LOW PRESSURE IN THE SOUTHWESTERN CARIBBEAN SEA HAS
DEVELOPED ENOUGH ORGANIZED THUNDERSTORM ACTIVITY TO NOW BE
CONSIDERED A TROPICAL DEPRESSION. SATELLITE IMAGES SHOW THAT A NEW
BURST OF THUNDERSTORMS IS OCCURRING NEAR THE CENTER WITH BANDING
FEATURES BECOMING MORE DISTINGUISHED. TAFB/SAB DVORAK
CLASSIFICATIONS WERE 2.0…30 KT…AT 1200 UTC…AND THAT INTENSITY
WILL BE USED AS THE INITIAL WIND SPEED. IT WOULD NOT BE
SURPRISING…HOWEVER…IF THIS SYSTEM WERE ALREADY A TROPICAL STORM
DUE TO THE IMPROVING SATELLITE PRESENTATION. THE AIR FORCE RESERVE
WILL BE IN THE AREA THIS AFTERNOON TO GIVE A BETTER ESTIMATE OF THE
WINDS.

THE INITIAL MOTION USED FOR THIS ADVISORY IS 315/7…THOUGH IT IS
UNCERTAIN WHETHER THIS IS TRULY REPRESENTATIVE DUE TO THE CENTER
REFORMATION THAT APPEARED TO OCCUR OVERNIGHT. STEERING CURRENTS ARE
EXPECTED TO BE FAIRLY LIGHT DURING THE NEXT SEVERAL DAYS AS THE
DEPRESSION IS CAUGHT BETWEEN A WEAK MID-LEVEL HIGH OVER THE
NORTH-CENTRAL CARIBBEAN SEA AND A TROUGH OVER THE SOUTHWESTERN GULF
OF MEXICO. ALTHOUGH THERE IS GENERAL AGREEMENT IN THE LARGE-SCALE
PATTERN…THE MODELS ARE SHOWING A LARGE AMOUNT OF DIVERGENCE ON
THE EXPECTED PATH OF THE DEPRESSION. MOST OF THE GUIDANCE SUGGEST
THE SYSTEM WILL MOVE TO THE NORTHWEST THEN NORTH AROUND THE
SOUTHWESTERN PERIPHERY OF THE CARIBBEAN RIDGE. HOWEVER…SOME OF
THE RELIABLE GUIDANCE…SUCH AS THE ECMWF AND UKMET…SHOW THE
SYSTEM MOVING CONSIDERABLY SLOWER WITH ONLY A NORTHWARD DRIFT.
GIVEN THE UNCERTAINTY…THE NHC FORECAST IS NEAR BUT SLIGHTLY TO
THE RIGHT OF THE MODEL CONSENSUS.

ALTHOUGH THE DEPRESSION IS CURRENTLY IN A LIGHT SHEAR AND WARM WATER
ENVIRONMENT…ITS PROXIMITY TO LAND AND UNCERTAIN TRACK FORECAST
LEADS TO A COMPLEX INTENSITY FORECAST. THE GFDL…ONE OF THE ONLY
MODELS THAT KEEPS THE SYSTEM OFFSHORE…MAKES THE SYSTEM A
HURRICANE IN A FEW DAYS. HOWEVER…NEITHER THE SHIPS NOR THE LGEM
MODELS SHOW MUCH INTENSIFICATION AT ALL. THESE MODELS SEEM TO BE A
LITTLE UNDERDONE…AND THE NHC FORECAST WILL BE ON THE HIGHER SIDE
OF THE GUIDANCE ENVELOPE…THOUGH NOT AS HIGH AS THE GFDL.

FORECAST POSITIONS AND MAX WINDS

INITIAL 04/1500Z 11.6N 82.0W 30 KT
12HR VT 05/0000Z 11.9N 82.3W 45 KT
24HR VT 05/1200Z 12.5N 83.0W 50 KT
36HR VT 06/0000Z 13.0N 83.5W 50 KT
48HR VT 06/1200Z 13.5N 84.0W 35 KT…INLAND
72HR VT 07/1200Z 14.5N 84.5W 25 KT…INLAND
96HR VT 08/1200Z 15.5N 85.0W 25 KT…INLAND
120HR VT 09/1200Z 18.0N 85.5W 35 KT…OVER WATER

$$
FORECASTER BLAKE/FRANKLIN

Reply

5 Jason V. November 4, 2009 at 10:45 AM

I don’t see what’s so exciting about a tropical storm developing in an area that most certainly will take it into Florida eventually. Please keep your enthusiasm contained to those who care (you).

Reply

6 stormfan November 4, 2009 at 10:43 AM

there’s no surface circulation. what givse?

Reply

7 Tim Trice November 4, 2009 at 10:58 AM

Nor is there deep convection:

Rainbands surrounding low level circulation as witnessed in my previously posted image. But, yes, no surface circulation.

I think I said in an earlier comment the NHC’s ideas of a cyclone are different than miine. A tropical cyclone must have a surface circulation:

A warm-core non-frontal synoptic-scale cyclone, originating over tropical or subtropical waters, with organized deep convection and a closed surface wind circulation about a well-defined center

Tropical Cyclone definition from NHC

  • organized deep convection – I’d say so-so – there’s rainbands around the coc but I wouldn’t say deep based on above image;
  • well-defined center – check;
  • closed surface wind circulation – not according to QuikSCAT. There are no surface obs close enough to demonstrate anything more than a sharp wave axis

I would have waited until recon. But, I’m not surprised they went ahead and upgraded it. Nonetheless, it is what it is and based on current trends I’d suspect recon will find closed surface circulation. Obs are already coming in but they won’t be at the center until around 2PM CST

Reply

8 stormfan November 4, 2009 at 4:13 PM

sorry, tim.

000
WTNT41 KNHC 042056
TCDAT1
TROPICAL STORM IDA DISCUSSION NUMBER 2
NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL AL112009
400 PM EST WED NOV 04 2009

SATELLITE IMAGES SHOW THAT…ALTHOUGH CONVECTION HAS WEAKENED THIS
AFTERNOON…THE OVERALL CLOUD PATTERN CONTINUES TO BE WELL-ORGANIZED
WITH STRONG BANDS IN THE NORTHERN SEMICIRCLE OF THE SYSTEM. AN AIR
FORCE RESERVE RECONNAISSANCE PLANE FOUND MAXIMUM FLIGHT-LEVEL WINDS
OF 53 KT…SFMR WINDS OF 48 KT…AND A FALLING MINIMUM CENTRAL
PRESSURE OF 996 MB. THESE DATA SUPPORT AN INITIAL WIND SPEED OF
ABOUT 50 KT…AND THUS THE SYSTEM HAS BEEN NAMED IDA.

THE INITIAL MOTION APPEARS TO HAVE TURNED SLIGHTLY TO THE LEFT…AND
IS NOW 300/5. IDA IS MOVING THROUGH AN AREA OF LIGHT STEERING
BETWEEN A RIDGE OVER THE NORTH-CENTRAL CARIBBEAN SEA AND A WEAK
TROUGH OVER THE SOUTHWESTERN GULF OF MEXICO. THERE IS BETTER
AGREEMENT IN THE MODELS THIS AFTERNOON ON THE STORM SLOWLY MOVING
TO THE NORTHWEST…THEN TO THE NORTH AROUND THE WESTERN PART OF THE
CARIBBEAN RIDGE. ONLY THE UKMET MODEL NOW KEEPS THE SYSTEM OVER
WATER WITHOUT SIGNIFICANT LAND INTERACTION. THE OFFICIAL NHC
FORECAST IS SHIFTED WESTWARD AND IS FASTER THAN THE PREVIOUS ONE.

ALTHOUGH ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS FAVOR STRENGTHENING…IDA DOES NOT
HAVE MUCH MORE TIME LEFT BEFORE IT MOVES OVER NICARAGUA. THE
INTENSITY FORECAST IS CLOSE TO PREVIOUS ONE IN THE SHORT-TERM…
SHOWING SOME STRENGTHENING OF IDA…AND THEN REDUCED THEREAFTER DUE
TO THE EFFECTS OF LAND. IN A FEW DAYS…THE ATMOSPHERIC ENVIRONMENT
COULD ALLOW FOR SOME REINTENSIFICATION OF THE SYSTEM OVER THE
NORTHWESTERN CARIBBEAN SEA. HOWEVER… IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE THAT
THE TROPICAL CYCLONE COULD DISSIPATE OVER THE HIGHER TERRAIN OF
CENTRAL AMERICA.

LIFE-THREATENING FLASH FLOODS AND MUD SLIDES FROM EXTREMELY HEAVY
RAINS ARE EXPECTED TO BE THE BIGGEST THREAT FROM IDA.

FORECAST POSITIONS AND MAX WINDS

INITIAL 04/2100Z 12.0N 82.7W 50 KT
12HR VT 05/0600Z 12.4N 83.3W 55 KT
24HR VT 05/1800Z 13.0N 84.1W 40 KT…INLAND
36HR VT 06/0600Z 13.7N 84.6W 30 KT…INLAND
48HR VT 06/1800Z 14.5N 85.0W 25 KT…INLAND
72HR VT 07/1800Z 16.0N 85.5W 25 KT…OVER WATER
96HR VT 08/1800Z 18.0N 86.0W 35 KT
120HR VT 09/1800Z 20.5N 86.5W 40 KT

$$
FORECASTER BLAKE/PASCH

Reply

9 wrong-forecast November 4, 2009 at 4:15 PM

you couldn’t be any more wrong but i know you will be tomorrow. cant wait to see you say this thing will dissipate before it hits land.

I’m sticking to wunderground.com!

Reply

10 piratewx November 4, 2009 at 4:18 PM

how’s that 20 years experience working for ya there, bud??? LMAO!!!

Reply

11 Fish November 5, 2009 at 11:05 AM

Dude, give him a break, hes just going by what he sees. His observations were very reasonable at the time, and if Ida didn’t put on one of the most rapid strengthening rates on record, he wouldn’t have been that far off. Sorry to hear everyone getting on you, I believe you have a very nice website and analysis. Don’t let idiots such as the ones above discontinue that. Keep up the good work.

Reply

Leave a Comment

You can use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>

Previous post:

Next post:

On Facebook On Twitter On YouTube On LinkedIn RSS feed Email me